From chk at cfrq.net Wed Nov 16 10:29:55 2005 From: chk at cfrq.net (Harald Koch) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:29:55 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] Google affair Message-ID: <038a01c5eac2$99649cf0$096355c7@americas.hpqcorp.net> [ since comments are closed on your weblog >:] You know, Google's not totally at fault here. They were sent the data by the publisher; they shouldn't be required to independantly verify that the publisher had the right to send it to them. That the publisher tried to assert rights that you assert they don't own is the problem, and I'm surprised you're not going after them. Of course, if you are, I'd still like to hear what the results of that investigation are. -- Harald From holly at hollylisle.com Wed Nov 16 10:37:36 2005 From: holly at hollylisle.com (Holly Lisle) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:37:36 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] Google affair In-Reply-To: <038a01c5eac2$99649cf0$096355c7@americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: My agent it taking care of that. Holly On Wednesday, November 16, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Harald Koch wrote: > [ since comments are closed on your weblog >:] > > You know, Google's not totally at fault here. They were sent the data > by the > publisher; they shouldn't be required to independantly verify that the > publisher had the right to send it to them. > > That the publisher tried to assert rights that you assert they don't > own is > the problem, and I'm surprised you're not going after them. > > Of course, if you are, I'd still like to hear what the results of that > investigation are. > > -- > Harald > > > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l > > From holly at hollylisle.com Wed Nov 16 10:58:19 2005 From: holly at hollylisle.com (Holly Lisle) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:58:19 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] Google affair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Incidentally, it breaks down like this. Holzbrink doesn't have a contract with me, and so has no right to sell or give away reprint rights on my books -- and didn't offer a contract to Google, anyway. Tor didn't know what Holzbrink had done, and Tor would not have offered the books under Google's terms (a share of ad revenue to the corporate honchos at Holzbrink), and was pissed (and is pursuing legal options) regarding the rights that were appropriated from them by Holzbrink. You need to understand this, because it is at the heart of this whole mess. Google cannot legally publish ANY copyrighted works without purchasing reprint rights. If they don't have a contract with the authors, it ain't legal. By publishing the books in their entirety, even if those works are not readily available in their entirety at any one time, they have criminally violated copyright. So, no, Harald, Google IS totally at fault. Ignorance of the law is no defense against the law. (And I'm betting they weren't ignorant, even going in -- just big and greedy and well-protected by corporate insulation.) Meanwhile, Holzbrink is also guilty of various breaches of contract and copyright. The whole thing in an incredible mess, but would be simple to fix. Just as libraries purchase their copies of books -- and authors receive the royalties, Google could purchase reprint rights, which would go into the author's and publishers accounts. (Why not have Google purchase a copy? Because if the thing can be read by a million people simultaneously, whether it will be or not, you have published it. You are not presenting one copy, but a million.) Purchasing reprint rights would be legal, it would honorable, and it won't happen in a million years. Because ... Google is big, and greedy, and well-protected by corporate insulation. Holly On Wednesday, November 16, 2005, at 10:37 AM, Holly Lisle wrote: > My agent it taking care of that. > > Holly > On Wednesday, November 16, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Harald Koch wrote: > >> [ since comments are closed on your weblog >:] >> >> You know, Google's not totally at fault here. They were sent the data >> by the >> publisher; they shouldn't be required to independantly verify that the >> publisher had the right to send it to them. >> >> That the publisher tried to assert rights that you assert they don't >> own is >> the problem, and I'm surprised you're not going after them. >> >> Of course, if you are, I'd still like to hear what the results of that >> investigation are. >> >> -- >> Harald >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Holly-L mailing list >> Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu >> http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l > > From chk at cfrq.net Wed Nov 16 14:19:47 2005 From: chk at cfrq.net (Harald Koch) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:19:47 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] Google affair References: Message-ID: <039601c5eae2$b56e7270$096355c7@americas.hpqcorp.net> I didn't say Google wasn't at fault. But I still think that the publisher is just as at fault in this deal as Google is; they apparently gave away something they didn't have the right to give. I don't think the issue is nearly as monochrome as you believe; I guess we'll have to disagree on that. -- Harald From Becky at TheOriginalSeries.com Mon Nov 21 08:57:19 2005 From: Becky at TheOriginalSeries.com (Becky Huffman) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:57:19 -0600 Subject: [Holly-L] thanks! Message-ID: <007e01c5eea3$8098baa0$47a09b18@tos> Thanks for offering another ebay crit - it quickly went out of my range, but I think it's wonderful that you're willing to help people that way. I saw on your blog that your going to have a working holiday, but I hope you are able to make some time for family and feasting as well. Becky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/pipermail/holly-l/attachments/20051121/b5b1a2c4/attachment.html From holly at hollylisle.com Tue Nov 22 07:13:17 2005 From: holly at hollylisle.com (Holly Lisle) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:13:17 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] thanks! In-Reply-To: <007e01c5eea3$8098baa0$47a09b18@tos> Message-ID: <5D00D894-5B51-11DA-A67C-000393A54C96@hollylisle.com> I'm putting together some e-books that I'll be selling for $9.95 on the site -- those will be considerably less pricey than the courses and crits. I'm surprised those went up so fast, actually. Holly On Monday, November 21, 2005, at 08:57 AM, Becky Huffman wrote: > Thanks for offering another ebay crit - it quickly went out of my > range, but I think it's wonderful that you're willing to help people > that way.?? I saw on your blog that your going to have a working > holiday, but I hope you are able to make some time for family and > feasting as well. > ? > Becky > ? > ? > ? > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 887 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/pipermail/holly-l/attachments/20051122/e25d6b6a/attachment.bin From Becky at TheOriginalSeries.com Wed Nov 23 09:53:43 2005 From: Becky at TheOriginalSeries.com (Becky Huffman) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:53:43 -0600 Subject: [Holly-L] thanks! References: <5D00D894-5B51-11DA-A67C-000393A54C96@hollylisle.com> Message-ID: <012e01c5f03d$b97ee6a0$6ba19b18@tos> Wonderful! I'll watch for them, I have quite a few books on writing that were recommended or have been given to me and out of that huge stack the only one that I was able to connect with as much as you was a book by Oakly Hall. He has a background as an author and as an educator, and I think in most cases that makes a difference. I see a lot of parallels between my riding and my writing and a key one is that a good author isn't necessarily a good instructor. -just like in horses, riding, training, teaching are separate but similar skills, it's the exceptional individual who can excel at all three. When I look for an instructor, one thing I look at is the long term success of their students. I attend quite a few cons and workshops and take what I can from them, but when I hit your writing help pages, the light bulb came on for me "OOOOOH !! *that's* what they meant" kind of thing. oh-uh - sorry for the fangurling. - Becky ----- Original Message ----- From: Holly Lisle To: Holly Lisle Mailing List Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [Holly-L] thanks! I'm putting together some e-books that I'll be selling for $9.95 on the site -- those will be considerably less pricey than the courses and crits. I'm surprised those went up so fast, actually. Holly On Monday, November 21, 2005, at 08:57 AM, Becky Huffman wrote: Thanks for offering another ebay crit - it quickly went out of my range, but I think it's wonderful that you're willing to help people that way. I saw on your blog that your going to have a working holiday, but I hope you are able to make some time for family and feasting as well. Becky _______________________________________________ Holly-L mailing list Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Holly-L mailing list Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/pipermail/holly-l/attachments/20051123/6d0360d7/attachment.html From rkbush at juno.com Wed Nov 23 10:05:45 2005 From: rkbush at juno.com (Keely Bush) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:05:45 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] thanks! Message-ID: <20051123.100545.3952.1.rkbush@juno.com> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:53:43 -0600 "Becky Huffman" writes: Wonderful! I'll watch for them, I have quite a few books on writing that were recommended or have been given to me and out of that huge stack the only one that I was able to connect with as much as you was a book by Oakly Hall. He has a background as an author and as an educator, and I think in most cases that makes a difference. I see a lot of parallels between my riding and my writing and a key one is that a good author isn't necessarily a good instructor. -just like in horses, riding, training, teaching are separate but similar skills, it's the exceptional individual who can excel at all three. When I look for an instructor, one thing I look at is the long term success of their students. I attend quite a few cons and workshops and take what I can from them, but when I hit your writing help pages, the light bulb came on for me "OOOOOH !! *that's* what they meant" kind of thing. oh-uh - sorry for the fangurling. - Becky ----- Original Message ----- From: Holly Lisle To: Holly Lisle Mailing List Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [Holly-L] thanks! I'm putting together some e-books that I'll be selling for $9.95 on the site -- those will be considerably less pricey than the courses and crits. I'm surprised those went up so fast, actually. Holly On Monday, November 21, 2005, at 08:57 AM, Becky Huffman wrote: Thanks for offering another ebay crit - it quickly went out of my range, but I think it's wonderful that you're willing to help people that way. I saw on your blog that your going to have a working holiday, but I hope you are able to make some time for family and feasting as well. Becky _______________________________________________ Holly-L mailing list Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l _______________________________________________ Holly-L mailing list Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/pipermail/holly-l/attachments/20051123/5dfeee6d/attachment.html From holly at hollylisle.com Fri Nov 25 07:24:38 2005 From: holly at hollylisle.com (Holly Lisle) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:24:38 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] thanks! In-Reply-To: <20051123.100545.3952.1.rkbush@juno.com> Message-ID: <726F6DA2-5DAE-11DA-B15E-000393A54C96@hollylisle.com> Damn Fritos. Can't hang onto them for anything. Holly On Wednesday, November 23, 2005, at 10:05 AM, Keely Bush wrote: > disappears back into the mists> > ? > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:53:43 -0600 "Becky Huffman" > writes: > > Wonderful!? I'll watch for them, > ? > I have quite a few books on writing that were recommended or have been > given to me and out of that huge stack the only one that I was able to > connect with as much as you was a book by Oakly Hall.? He has a > background as an author and as an educator, and I think in most cases > that makes a difference.? I see a lot of parallels between my riding > and my writing and a key one is that a good author isn't necessarily a > good instructor. -just like in horses,? riding, training, teaching are > separate but similar skills, it's the exceptional individual who can > excel at all three.? When I look for an instructor, one thing I look > at is the long term success of their students.? > ? > I attend quite a few cons and workshops and take what I can from them, > but?when I hit your writing help pages, the light bulb came on for me > "OOOOOH !!? *that's* what they meant" kind of thing. > ? > oh-uh - sorry for the fangurling. - > ? > Becky > ? > > ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Holly Lisle > To: Holly Lisle Mailing List > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Holly-L] thanks! > > I'm putting together some e-books that I'll be selling for $9.95 on > the site -- those will be considerably less pricey than the courses > and crits. I'm surprised those went up so fast, actually. > > Holly > > On Monday, November 21, 2005, at 08:57 AM, Becky Huffman wrote: > > Thanks for offering another ebay crit - it quickly went out of my > range, but I think it's wonderful that you're willing to help people > that way.?? I saw on your blog that your going to have a working > holiday, but I hope you are able to make some time for family and > feasting as well. > ? > Becky > ? > ? > ? > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3159 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/pipermail/holly-l/attachments/20051125/9e1ae0c2/attachment.bin From holly at hollylisle.com Fri Nov 25 07:34:47 2005 From: holly at hollylisle.com (Holly Lisle) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:34:47 -0500 Subject: [Holly-L] thanks! In-Reply-To: <012e01c5f03d$b97ee6a0$6ba19b18@tos> Message-ID: I'm glad my articles help. I love teaching. Holly On Wednesday, November 23, 2005, at 09:53 AM, Becky Huffman wrote: > Wonderful!? I'll watch for them, > ? > I have quite a few books on writing that were recommended or have been > given to me and out of that huge stack the only one that I was able to > connect with as much as you was a book by Oakly Hall.? He has a > background as an author and as an educator, and I think in most cases > that makes a difference.? I see a lot of parallels between my riding > and my writing and a key one is that a good author isn't necessarily a > good instructor. -just like in horses,? riding, training, teaching are > separate but similar skills, it's the exceptional individual who can > excel at all three.? When I look for an instructor, one thing I look > at is the long term success of their students.? > ? > I attend quite a few cons and workshops and take what I can from them, > but?when I hit your writing help pages, the light bulb came on for me > "OOOOOH !!? *that's* what they meant" kind of thing. > ? > oh-uh - sorry for the fangurling. - > ? > Becky > ? > > ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Holly Lisle > To: Holly Lisle Mailing List > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Holly-L] thanks! > > I'm putting together some e-books that I'll be selling for $9.95 on > the site -- those will be considerably less pricey than the courses > and crits. I'm surprised those went up so fast, actually. > > Holly > > On Monday, November 21, 2005, at 08:57 AM, Becky Huffman wrote: > > Thanks for offering another ebay crit - it quickly went out of my > range, but I think it's wonderful that you're willing to help people > that way.?? I saw on your blog that your going to have a working > holiday, but I hope you are able to make some time for family and > feasting as well. > ? > Becky > ? > ? > ? > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l > > _______________________________________________ > Holly-L mailing list > Holly-L at solaris.cc.vt.edu > http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/holly-l -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://solaris.cc.vt.edu/pipermail/holly-l/attachments/20051125/d6361fca/attachment.bin